Saturday, August 4, 2007
NASCAR vs. MLB--part II
Last week, we all shared a journey through two sports fans' thoughts on Major League Baseball and NASCAR and how the two sports line up against each other.
Today, we conclude our sojourn with further examination of the two sports and their many facets.
Also, a few people have asked about David Baker, our guest for this discussion. Well, he says he has been an avid sports fan for as long as he can remember, and asserts that baseball is his favorite sport. He has been a life-long fan of the Padres and Chargers, as well as the Lakers in the NBA and the Flyers in the NHL. He has yet to become a NASCAR fan, but assures me that one day, he will indeed consider himself a motorhead.
And now, back to our discussion.
-- -- --
DK: If you're just rooting for a team and/or city, all you're rooting for is the logo -- it doesn't matter who's on the team anymore because it's a revolving door of free agency and self-serving egos that follow the almighty dollar. At least in NASCAR, the team stays together because they're in in for more than just themselves. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have rear-tire carriers because they would only want people to know who they are. But as it is, drivers are WAY more loyal to their teams than any athlete in the other pro sports. Dale Earnhardt Jr. leaving DEI is probably the first time a huge driver like that changed teams in his career, whereas MLB players change teams like they change underwear -- even the big stars. If you want to root for your hollow, empty logo, that's fine; I root for a team that has a star (the driver) like the NFL's QB, and has some "anonymous" guys (the crew) like NFL lineman. If that's not good enough to be a pro team, then I just don't know what is.
And as far as athleticism, that is exactly what I'm telling you. Well, perhaps not more athletic in terms of flexibility or anything, but as far as stamina, toughness and strength, NASCAR drivers are up there with NFL players. You and I couldn't do it, David Wells couldn't do it, and I seriously doubt that Adrian Gonzalez could do it. He's one of the top, what...100?...baseball players in the world. To drive in the Nextel Cup Series, you have to be one of the top 40 drivers in the world, and you have to stay there while younger, possibly more talented drivers are nipping at your heels. If you're not in tip-top shape these days, you're not going to be driving very much longer (look what has happened to Bobby Labonte, Sterling Marlin, Steve Park, Jimmy Spencer, Rusty Wallace, Mark Martin and Jeremy Mayfield).
DB: That's ridiculous. While I think we can both agree that either would have trouble transitioning into the other sport, baseball players in general would have a much easier time playing a sport besides NASCAR or baseball.
And none the less, if you're looking for self serving, look no further than NASCAR. They have nothing to race for but money and self promotion. In baseball, that may often be true, but from time to time you have the Tony Gwynns of this world that serve one team and city their whole careers. The only thing NASCAR drivers ever play for is themselves.
And you've got to be kidding me about Adrian not being able to have the stamina for racing.
DK: NASCAR drivers appear to be the most self-serving athletes, but it's really that they're being promoted as such by their sponsors; the same way a QB is pimped by his team by the media and by the team's public relations folks. But ironically, most NASCAR drivers tend to shun this, or at least just do it out of necessity, because they aren't driving just for themselves. Their team (from the owner, crew chief and crew down to the dudes turning wrenches in the shop) is who they race for; most of those guys have relationships within those teams that go back to childhood. When it comes to the money, they do what's asked of them by sponsors and such, but they're far more likely to stick around for less money than any other athlete. Even Dale Jr. leaving his team wasn't about the money; it was that his stepmother was refusing to give him any power within the organization his father created. That's just another level of loyalty that is rare in other sports -- family.
And Adrian couldn't last an entire race.
DB: I'm not sure about the loyalty thing in NASCAR being greater than other sports. I think in all sports you have the home-town guys. Well, I guess not in NASCAR, but you have the loyal guys and the wanderers. And Adrian has a better chance of lasting a season of racing, than a random NASCAR has a chance of surviving 162 games in baseball.
And the loyalty of family is once again more self-serving than that of baseball. The players embrace a whole city (unless they're the small percentage like Manny Ramirez), as well as the players they grind it out with. As for racing, the pit guys are just the random support of a lesser value -- kind of like a kicker.
DK: I'm just saying that you have a better chance of finding a NASCAR driver staying with his team out of loyalty than it is to find that anywhere else. The family loyalty is something I thought you'd celebrate, being all home-town, apple pie, pickup-truck-and-a-hound-dog like you are.
But I take special exception to the comparison of a NASCAR driver's crew to an NFL kicker -- if anything, the crew is like the offensive line; if they miss one minute detail like a lugnut or a missed jack placement, that team goes from leading to middle of the pack, just like if a lineman missed one block, it can end the team's drive. Those guys practice harder and longer than any NFL kicker, and they don't even get heralded when the team wins. If you're into the little things mattering for a team, the pit crew members should be your heroes.
Also, there's no way Adrian could last through 42 races. Not even close. You don't get to sit down in between innings, you don't get to wait in the on-deck circle or anything.
DB: You're really gonna try to tell me you think this (link to less-than-flattering photo of Tony Stewart omitted has more stamina than this (link to photo of Adrian Gonzalez circling the bases omitted)? Beyond the obvious appearance differences, Adrian has a better chance at making it in any sport than Stewart -- except maybe bowling.
DK: As far as stamina goes, I most definitely am saying that Tony Stewart could outlast Adrian Gonzalez. NASCAR drivers have to be able to physically force a 3,500-pound hunk of metal to change course against its will, and they have to be mentally capable of keeping their car from touching the other cars and the wall with less than two inches of room in some cases. The mental stamina alone makes these guys WAAAAAAAY more capable of handling anything any other sport can dish out than a baseball player who spends an inordinate amount of time not doing anything.
And not only do the drivers have to finish the race without wrecking, they're then expected to give a coherent interview as soon as they climb out of the car. If we're trying to decide who's in better shape, I'll take a NASCAR driver over a baseball player any day, regardless of what the photos may look like.
To accentuate my point, here's a quote about how much down time baseball players have, compared to the zero down time in NASCAR. I'll even give you caution periods as "down" time, and that's still less than 30% of a given race.
"Sports Illustrated columnist Rick Reilly timed a ball in play during a 2000 playoff game. The game lasted 3 hours and 15 minutes, and the ball was in play a total of 12 minutes and 22 seconds (and Reilly admitted to being "generous with the stopwatch"). Do the math and you'll see that for 94% of the game, players were either spitting seeds, jumping in and out of the batter's box, or adjusting themselves. Along those same lines, in 1956, a sportswriter named Dick Wade timed the actual "action" during a game and found that the ball was in play for nine minutes and 55 seconds. Neither Wade's nor Reilly's findings are scientific, but their point is proven nonetheless. When watching baseball, just about any time is a good time to go for a beer."
DB: How much more down time can you have than sitting on your butt the entire event? Even if the ball is only in play for ten minutes of a baseball game, that's 9.5 minutes more physical action than NASCAR (15 seconds to climb in the car, and 15 to get out). Tony Stewart couldn't run the bases without taking time to sit down between second and third to catch his breath.
And you still haven't addressed the fact that drivers wouldn't be able to succeed in any other sport, while time after time we see baseball players that were drafted in more than one sport (Chris Young, Dave Winfield, Tom Glavine, Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, etc.)
DK: Obviously the two-sport pros who opted to play MLB were capable of playing other sports and decided that they didn't want to have to work as hard, so they chose baseball. I worked for a minor league ball club and I saw daily how the baseball player's season goes -- they get up around whenever they want, they show up to the park about two hours before game time, they get dressed, they stretch, they maybe run three or four laps from the foul line to center field and back, then they take some practice cuts, do some infield, then they play the game and go home. I am currently in a physical shape that would allow me to play baseball for an entire season without much trouble.
But I could not (nor could you or any MLB player) physically handle a single Nextel Cup race, let alone the NASCAR season. If you think it's just sitting there for four hours, you have obviously never driven a car of any kind, nor have you passed middle school science. The g-force alone is as physically demanding as what an astronaut does.
As far as NASCAR drivers competing in other sports, there's just a different set of skills involved. I've never said it's easy to be a pro baseball player, only that it's less physically and mentally demanding than NASCAR. Of course Kasey Kahne couldn't hit a 90 mph fastball or cover Antonio Gates in open space, but neither could Alfonso Soriano drive a Nextel Cup car (and keep it up to minimum speed without hitting the wall or another car). And that transition would not be any easier than going the other way. It's very tempting to think that just because we've all had our cars up to 85 mph on the highway, we could drive a race car -- but that's like saying that because I've been mini-golfing, I could join the PGA tour.
In the end, I'm the only one of the two of us who has been (and still is) a fan of both MLB and NASCAR, so until you're a full-blown motorhead like me, I'm the only one qualified enough to discuss both sides accurately.
Oh, and Tony Stewart could outrun Adrian Gonzalez any day of the week and twice on Sunday, even after a 500 mile race. Stewart consistently does what they call the "Memorial Day 1100," where he runs in the Indy 500, then hops on a chopper to Charlotte, N.C. to run in the Coca-Cola 600, the longest event on the Nextel Cup schedule. Stewart's also the dude who once was forced to soil himself in his car when he had the flu, then not only continued to run the race, he won the thing. There is absolutely ZERO chance that Gonzo even shows up to the park when he feels that bad.
DB: See, but you can't discuss both sides accurately. First off, you have a strong bias towards NASCAR, which is throwing you off, and you telling me that Tony Stewart can run two races consecutively only lends me to the thought that Adrian could run three or four. And Adrian does play sick. I'm sorry Dan, you just will never be able to convince me that all NASCAR drivers have more stamina than all baseball players, or even that most drivers have more stamina than most ball players. Maybe they can beat out some middle relief guys, and some DHs, but that's part of why the DH is lame -- t makes us look lazy. And i never said baseball players wouldn't have difficulty in a race; they would. It takes a lot of skill developed over practice and time to be a good driver. But the same principals apply to baseball. I'm just saying that there are more athletes who could cross over to another pro sport from baseball than in NASCAR. You can't argue with that.
DK: You are right that MLB players could go into other sports more easily, but don't try to use that to take away the fact that NASCAR drivers are in so much better shape than people give them credit for. I admit that it hasn't been that long since dudes like Dale Earnhardt Sr., Darrell Waltrip and Harry Gant could go out drinking all weekend, then show up 20 minutes before the race and go out and win. But if nothing else, I would like to instill in you that today's NASCAR is so much different from even 10 years ago. It's like comparing MLB to those Rock & Jock softball games; they're not even close, even though a casual observer could point out one or two similarities.
DB: Ha ha -- yeah, I do give NASCAR more credit than others though. Each sport takes a lot of work and training to get to the top. And there will always be those guys that are a little more out of shape than others in pretty much every sport.
-- -- --
Well there you have it, two fans presenting their sides of the story and reaching an equitable agreement. Well, an agreement to disagree, if nothing else.
That is why sports are so great; every sports fan has a different background and reasons for loving the sports and teams they love. And no matter how much we debate, we'll always stay loyal to those first loves.
Until then, I hope to hear more from you about this and any other sports topics you may wish to discuss. You can e-mail me at sports@valleycenter.com or visit our blog page by going to www.valleycenter.com and clicking on the "RR Blogs" link.
And just in case you're keeping score, that's NASCAR, 1, MLB 0.
Today, we conclude our sojourn with further examination of the two sports and their many facets.
Also, a few people have asked about David Baker, our guest for this discussion. Well, he says he has been an avid sports fan for as long as he can remember, and asserts that baseball is his favorite sport. He has been a life-long fan of the Padres and Chargers, as well as the Lakers in the NBA and the Flyers in the NHL. He has yet to become a NASCAR fan, but assures me that one day, he will indeed consider himself a motorhead.
And now, back to our discussion.
-- -- --
DK: If you're just rooting for a team and/or city, all you're rooting for is the logo -- it doesn't matter who's on the team anymore because it's a revolving door of free agency and self-serving egos that follow the almighty dollar. At least in NASCAR, the team stays together because they're in in for more than just themselves. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have rear-tire carriers because they would only want people to know who they are. But as it is, drivers are WAY more loyal to their teams than any athlete in the other pro sports. Dale Earnhardt Jr. leaving DEI is probably the first time a huge driver like that changed teams in his career, whereas MLB players change teams like they change underwear -- even the big stars. If you want to root for your hollow, empty logo, that's fine; I root for a team that has a star (the driver) like the NFL's QB, and has some "anonymous" guys (the crew) like NFL lineman. If that's not good enough to be a pro team, then I just don't know what is.
And as far as athleticism, that is exactly what I'm telling you. Well, perhaps not more athletic in terms of flexibility or anything, but as far as stamina, toughness and strength, NASCAR drivers are up there with NFL players. You and I couldn't do it, David Wells couldn't do it, and I seriously doubt that Adrian Gonzalez could do it. He's one of the top, what...100?...baseball players in the world. To drive in the Nextel Cup Series, you have to be one of the top 40 drivers in the world, and you have to stay there while younger, possibly more talented drivers are nipping at your heels. If you're not in tip-top shape these days, you're not going to be driving very much longer (look what has happened to Bobby Labonte, Sterling Marlin, Steve Park, Jimmy Spencer, Rusty Wallace, Mark Martin and Jeremy Mayfield).
DB: That's ridiculous. While I think we can both agree that either would have trouble transitioning into the other sport, baseball players in general would have a much easier time playing a sport besides NASCAR or baseball.
And none the less, if you're looking for self serving, look no further than NASCAR. They have nothing to race for but money and self promotion. In baseball, that may often be true, but from time to time you have the Tony Gwynns of this world that serve one team and city their whole careers. The only thing NASCAR drivers ever play for is themselves.
And you've got to be kidding me about Adrian not being able to have the stamina for racing.
DK: NASCAR drivers appear to be the most self-serving athletes, but it's really that they're being promoted as such by their sponsors; the same way a QB is pimped by his team by the media and by the team's public relations folks. But ironically, most NASCAR drivers tend to shun this, or at least just do it out of necessity, because they aren't driving just for themselves. Their team (from the owner, crew chief and crew down to the dudes turning wrenches in the shop) is who they race for; most of those guys have relationships within those teams that go back to childhood. When it comes to the money, they do what's asked of them by sponsors and such, but they're far more likely to stick around for less money than any other athlete. Even Dale Jr. leaving his team wasn't about the money; it was that his stepmother was refusing to give him any power within the organization his father created. That's just another level of loyalty that is rare in other sports -- family.
And Adrian couldn't last an entire race.
DB: I'm not sure about the loyalty thing in NASCAR being greater than other sports. I think in all sports you have the home-town guys. Well, I guess not in NASCAR, but you have the loyal guys and the wanderers. And Adrian has a better chance of lasting a season of racing, than a random NASCAR has a chance of surviving 162 games in baseball.
And the loyalty of family is once again more self-serving than that of baseball. The players embrace a whole city (unless they're the small percentage like Manny Ramirez), as well as the players they grind it out with. As for racing, the pit guys are just the random support of a lesser value -- kind of like a kicker.
DK: I'm just saying that you have a better chance of finding a NASCAR driver staying with his team out of loyalty than it is to find that anywhere else. The family loyalty is something I thought you'd celebrate, being all home-town, apple pie, pickup-truck-and-a-hound-dog like you are.
But I take special exception to the comparison of a NASCAR driver's crew to an NFL kicker -- if anything, the crew is like the offensive line; if they miss one minute detail like a lugnut or a missed jack placement, that team goes from leading to middle of the pack, just like if a lineman missed one block, it can end the team's drive. Those guys practice harder and longer than any NFL kicker, and they don't even get heralded when the team wins. If you're into the little things mattering for a team, the pit crew members should be your heroes.
Also, there's no way Adrian could last through 42 races. Not even close. You don't get to sit down in between innings, you don't get to wait in the on-deck circle or anything.
DB: You're really gonna try to tell me you think this (link to less-than-flattering photo of Tony Stewart omitted has more stamina than this (link to photo of Adrian Gonzalez circling the bases omitted)? Beyond the obvious appearance differences, Adrian has a better chance at making it in any sport than Stewart -- except maybe bowling.
DK: As far as stamina goes, I most definitely am saying that Tony Stewart could outlast Adrian Gonzalez. NASCAR drivers have to be able to physically force a 3,500-pound hunk of metal to change course against its will, and they have to be mentally capable of keeping their car from touching the other cars and the wall with less than two inches of room in some cases. The mental stamina alone makes these guys WAAAAAAAY more capable of handling anything any other sport can dish out than a baseball player who spends an inordinate amount of time not doing anything.
And not only do the drivers have to finish the race without wrecking, they're then expected to give a coherent interview as soon as they climb out of the car. If we're trying to decide who's in better shape, I'll take a NASCAR driver over a baseball player any day, regardless of what the photos may look like.
To accentuate my point, here's a quote about how much down time baseball players have, compared to the zero down time in NASCAR. I'll even give you caution periods as "down" time, and that's still less than 30% of a given race.
"Sports Illustrated columnist Rick Reilly timed a ball in play during a 2000 playoff game. The game lasted 3 hours and 15 minutes, and the ball was in play a total of 12 minutes and 22 seconds (and Reilly admitted to being "generous with the stopwatch"). Do the math and you'll see that for 94% of the game, players were either spitting seeds, jumping in and out of the batter's box, or adjusting themselves. Along those same lines, in 1956, a sportswriter named Dick Wade timed the actual "action" during a game and found that the ball was in play for nine minutes and 55 seconds. Neither Wade's nor Reilly's findings are scientific, but their point is proven nonetheless. When watching baseball, just about any time is a good time to go for a beer."
DB: How much more down time can you have than sitting on your butt the entire event? Even if the ball is only in play for ten minutes of a baseball game, that's 9.5 minutes more physical action than NASCAR (15 seconds to climb in the car, and 15 to get out). Tony Stewart couldn't run the bases without taking time to sit down between second and third to catch his breath.
And you still haven't addressed the fact that drivers wouldn't be able to succeed in any other sport, while time after time we see baseball players that were drafted in more than one sport (Chris Young, Dave Winfield, Tom Glavine, Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, etc.)
DK: Obviously the two-sport pros who opted to play MLB were capable of playing other sports and decided that they didn't want to have to work as hard, so they chose baseball. I worked for a minor league ball club and I saw daily how the baseball player's season goes -- they get up around whenever they want, they show up to the park about two hours before game time, they get dressed, they stretch, they maybe run three or four laps from the foul line to center field and back, then they take some practice cuts, do some infield, then they play the game and go home. I am currently in a physical shape that would allow me to play baseball for an entire season without much trouble.
But I could not (nor could you or any MLB player) physically handle a single Nextel Cup race, let alone the NASCAR season. If you think it's just sitting there for four hours, you have obviously never driven a car of any kind, nor have you passed middle school science. The g-force alone is as physically demanding as what an astronaut does.
As far as NASCAR drivers competing in other sports, there's just a different set of skills involved. I've never said it's easy to be a pro baseball player, only that it's less physically and mentally demanding than NASCAR. Of course Kasey Kahne couldn't hit a 90 mph fastball or cover Antonio Gates in open space, but neither could Alfonso Soriano drive a Nextel Cup car (and keep it up to minimum speed without hitting the wall or another car). And that transition would not be any easier than going the other way. It's very tempting to think that just because we've all had our cars up to 85 mph on the highway, we could drive a race car -- but that's like saying that because I've been mini-golfing, I could join the PGA tour.
In the end, I'm the only one of the two of us who has been (and still is) a fan of both MLB and NASCAR, so until you're a full-blown motorhead like me, I'm the only one qualified enough to discuss both sides accurately.
Oh, and Tony Stewart could outrun Adrian Gonzalez any day of the week and twice on Sunday, even after a 500 mile race. Stewart consistently does what they call the "Memorial Day 1100," where he runs in the Indy 500, then hops on a chopper to Charlotte, N.C. to run in the Coca-Cola 600, the longest event on the Nextel Cup schedule. Stewart's also the dude who once was forced to soil himself in his car when he had the flu, then not only continued to run the race, he won the thing. There is absolutely ZERO chance that Gonzo even shows up to the park when he feels that bad.
DB: See, but you can't discuss both sides accurately. First off, you have a strong bias towards NASCAR, which is throwing you off, and you telling me that Tony Stewart can run two races consecutively only lends me to the thought that Adrian could run three or four. And Adrian does play sick. I'm sorry Dan, you just will never be able to convince me that all NASCAR drivers have more stamina than all baseball players, or even that most drivers have more stamina than most ball players. Maybe they can beat out some middle relief guys, and some DHs, but that's part of why the DH is lame -- t makes us look lazy. And i never said baseball players wouldn't have difficulty in a race; they would. It takes a lot of skill developed over practice and time to be a good driver. But the same principals apply to baseball. I'm just saying that there are more athletes who could cross over to another pro sport from baseball than in NASCAR. You can't argue with that.
DK: You are right that MLB players could go into other sports more easily, but don't try to use that to take away the fact that NASCAR drivers are in so much better shape than people give them credit for. I admit that it hasn't been that long since dudes like Dale Earnhardt Sr., Darrell Waltrip and Harry Gant could go out drinking all weekend, then show up 20 minutes before the race and go out and win. But if nothing else, I would like to instill in you that today's NASCAR is so much different from even 10 years ago. It's like comparing MLB to those Rock & Jock softball games; they're not even close, even though a casual observer could point out one or two similarities.
DB: Ha ha -- yeah, I do give NASCAR more credit than others though. Each sport takes a lot of work and training to get to the top. And there will always be those guys that are a little more out of shape than others in pretty much every sport.
-- -- --
Well there you have it, two fans presenting their sides of the story and reaching an equitable agreement. Well, an agreement to disagree, if nothing else.
That is why sports are so great; every sports fan has a different background and reasons for loving the sports and teams they love. And no matter how much we debate, we'll always stay loyal to those first loves.
Until then, I hope to hear more from you about this and any other sports topics you may wish to discuss. You can e-mail me at sports@valleycenter.com or visit our blog page by going to www.valleycenter.com and clicking on the "RR Blogs" link.
And just in case you're keeping score, that's NASCAR, 1, MLB 0.
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